This topic had some interesting discussion on the old board.  We have some new members now, so I thought I'd re-post it.

From TTT, "The Forbidden Pool":


and later:


and again:


So...what do you think?  Just what is going on between Faraimr and Gollum mentally in this scene?  There's no right or wrong answer, obviously.

I personally think:  yes.  I'm not entirely sure about how it works, but it is clearly a Númenórean gift, and appears specific to their (Denethor and Faramir's, that is the Stewards') line.  If I may, I'd like to include some (fragments of) quotes about Denethor, because given the inheritance from Denethor to Faramir in this regard, they apply equally well to both.  So here are some more.




And this last pretty much clinches it: 
His comment about 'dark places' in Gollum's mind gives me the impression that Gollum is rather more difficult to read than whatever passes for normal.  We know that the Elves can communicate and perceive in this manner -- at least high-Elves can.  An inheritance from Elros perhaps?  It must have been a difficult thing to master, and I've always wanted to read a fanfic that dealt with the matter (but most overlook it entirely).  Faramir must make a brilliant councillor when you add this to his other qualities!  (Aragorn would have had to be mad to not 'keep' him.)

Definitely yes to this one. When you read the scenes with Faramir and the hobbits, or Gollum, or Denethor, or Eowyn, the subtext exceeds by far what is being said, and the subtext on Faramir's part is very often "I know exactly what is on your mind."

I would say: no. IMHO, Faramir doesn't have supernatural abilities. He is not a wizard or a similar supernatural creature.

But he is a wise man and he has a very good knowledge of human nature. This is the reason why he is able to read the hearts of men (and of Gollum).  I would say, Faramir is very empathic. 

Btw, we have thad he same discussion on my own board, some months ago. All users, also the bookpurists, have claimed, that Faramir isn't able to read minds, but he is sharpe-witted and empathic.
It's a big difference between reading minds and reading hearts. IMHO, Tolkien didn't want to put Faramir on a base of a holy, supernatural creature. Tolkien's Faramir is a special man with special abilities but not supernatural abilities.

I think "mind" and "heart" are synonyms in LotR. Actually, the story does imitate, in part, chronicles of the past...and in the past, it was the heart and not the head which was believed to control your thoughts, emotions and personality (think of the words like "kind-hearted"). So I wouldn't pick on that word...and if you have a better look at the quotes Cressida and Elizabeth_B kindly provided, "mind" does appear there a lot!

Even if Faramir "just" knows human nature very well...Gollum is not human. Gollum is a creature Faramir sees for the first time. Also, what he "sees" in Gollum includes some striking details: how on earth would he have worked out some facts of his biography in addition to his evil inclinations? And why does Gollum react to Faramir's scrutiny as if it hurt him physically?

Sorry, I have misunderstood 'reading minds'. I have thought, this is a telepathic ability.

If Faramir really could read minds in a telepathic way, he would know, that Frodo owns the One Ring and he wouldn't have to ask Frodo and Sam, what they are doing in Ithilien. Faramir notices, that Frodo has the One Ring, when Sam has told it to him.

'Human nature' - in my dictionary is not a fitting expression for it. I have meant the nature of all creatures in Middleearth.

Gollum's reaction to Faramir's 'scrutiny' is a part in this chapter of the book, I don't like. It's the same torture like in the movies, when Faramir let beat Gollum, but in a psychically way. 

Faramir had no idea that it was the One Ring that his (and Boromir's) dream had referred to until he learned about it...but, IIRC, he did think Frodo was carrying something dangerous even though Frodo didn't tell him much about the nature of his errand.


Um...I beg to differ. Beating someone up in order to get information and letting someone know that you're aware of their dirty secrets (just to state a fact, not to threaten or anything!) are NOT the same. It isn't Faramir who's hurting Gollum there, it's Gollum's own dark past, IMO.

Also...I'm afraid I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make. You don't agree that Faramir can "read" Frodo and Sam, but you're willing to admit he telepathically tortures Gollum? Does that mean, to you, that he can read minds, or that he can't?

And one more thing: it is explicitely stated in the book that Faramir does have supernatural abilities. Think of his prophetic dream, and his dreams of Numenor.

For me it is quite the same. After all, Faramir is accepting Gollum's pain.


No, he does not telepathically torture Gollum. IMHO, I's a kind of empathy.




IMHO, Faramir doesn'nt have nevertheless supernatural abilities. We know, that Faramir was nearly a pure Numenorean. He has some abilities of Numenoreans, but IMHO these aren't supernatural. You have to differ supernatural and superhuman abilities. I would agree, that Faramir has probably some superhuman abilities.

To the dream of Numenor:
 Tolkien had a similar dream from a big black wave. I don't believe, that Tolkien had supernatural abilities. 

To the prophetic dream: Boromir had the same dream, indeed only one time, but is Boromir then a man with supernatural abilities?  Boromir, the most human man in the books?

*shrugs* I don't think this distinction is so important (and no one really mentioned it here anyway). I don't actually think Faramir can read people's minds as one reads a piece of text. I doubt Gollum thinks "I killed Deagol long ago" and Faramir sees it word for word. Faramir senses Gollum's inclination towards murder, but not only that -- he also knows Gollum has "experience" in this field.


Tolkien didn't dream of something that really happened (or...who knows?); Faramir had visions of a real thing from the past before he even learned about it, IIRC.


I think the point of giving that dream to Boromir, whatever powers were at work there, was to draw attention to it and to make both brothers and Denethor analyze it better: such a pragmatic, "human," as you put it, person as Boromir getting that kind of a dream is so effective precisely because he's such an unlikely person to have it. I don't believe Boromir had ever had anything like this before -- that's why he was affected by it to the point of forcing Denethor to give the errand to him.

Well, I can live with this interpretation. We are approximating. This interpretation damps a bit the supernatural thing.


Where do you get that from?



I don't agree: Boromir was given the errand, because he was Denethor's favorite son. Denethor  was prefering him allways.

Hmm...I don't really remember very well, but didn't Faramir first have the dream of Numenor as a child?


Well...it is in the book that at first Faramir was supposed to go on that errand; Denethor was not willing to send Boromir, but eventually succumbed to his wishes.

I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I never could resist a good ol' fashioned throwdown! 


Are you sure you're not confusing the movie with the book? In the movie, Boromir is very clearly Denethor's favorite, and he obviously disdains Faramir in favor of Boromir and chooses Boromir over Faramir to go to Rivendell.

In the books, it doesn't work out like that. Faramir is the one who has the sword dream multiple times, whereas Boromir only has it once...and Denethor seems rather reluctant to send Boromir on the errand (and maybe he's reluctant to send Faramir too, but I can't remember the exact details). If anything, I would say that Denethor doesn't want Boromir to go at all, and sends him only because Boromir insists on it. So this is clearly not a case of Denethor playing favorites with his sons.

roh_wyn, I think, this is a matter of interpretation: IMHO, Denethor surrendered, because Boromir insisted to go to Rivendell. I can imagine, that Faramir wasn't very happy about it, but Denethor didn't care about Faramir's feelings. It was more important for him to fulfil the wish of his favorite son. So this is a kind of preferring.

I don't know. I just can't see how you're coming up with this, because there's really no evidence in the book that Denethor didn't care about Faramir's feelings, particularly with regard to the sword dream or the trip to Rivendell. All we hear about this errand is that Boromir insisted on going, and that Denethor ultimately gave in and allowed it. We're never told to what extent Denethor denied Faramir's interest in the errand, or whether Faramir even pressed Denethor as hard as Boromir did (although I imagine that Faramir probably did).

I just realized that I haven't posted my own opinion about the question asked in the title of this thread!

I don't think Faramir can read thoughts.  As Celebne points out above, if he could do that, he would not need to interrogate Frodo and Sam.  He also would not need to ask Éowyn whether she loved him.  But I do think there are things he knows by no ordinary means, such as the bit about Gollum having done murder before.  I think Lilan's interpretation, that he senses a sort of murderer's aura from Gollum, sounds about right.  But I think it could go just a bit deeper than that.

I am very intrigued by the statement about "locked doors and closed windows" in Gollum's mind.  I also notice that this comes after Faramir asks Gollum to look into his eyes.  This is even more interesting when paired with the scene where he asks Éowyn to look at him in "The Steward and the King":


I'm going to venture into highly speculative territory now, but here's what I think.  I think that Faramir has a sort of built-in "lie detector" which will let him see into a person, or whatever Gollum is, more deeply than his normal, already strong powers of observation.  I think it was probably while looking into Gollum's eyes that Faramir realized Gollum had done murder.  In that case ... very speculative now!  ... I like to think that he was anxious to see the truth once and for all in the scene with Éowyn.  He wanted to search her as deeply as was in his power, to know whether she loved him or not.  If he had seen nothing to encourage him, I think he would have gone away and not pressed his suit any further.

And as long as I'm mentioning Éowyn, I might as well include another interesting quote from earlier in the same chapter:


"Clear sight" is a literal translation of "clairvoyance."

To sum up, I don't think any of the quotations offers definite proof that Faramir has abilities that go beyond normal human powers of observation.  But when I look at all of them together, they add up, for me, to a strong suspicion that he does.

Now then, just a couple more small points:

I don't believe that JRRT ever says when Faramir first had the dream of the wave; I think Faramir only mentions in the HoH that he dreams of it often.  But if anyone knows a passage I've forgotten or overlooked, please feel free to set me straight!

And finally, about the part where Gollum squeals, I don't think it is torture.  I think it's a phenomenon similar to the one described in Aragorn, Appendix A:  "there was a light in his eyes that when they were kindled few could endure."  I don't think Faramir is causing pain to Gollum; Gollum is causing pain to himself by trying to deceive Faramir when he's "kindled."

Yes, that's it. I'm afraid my posts looked a bit muddled up, because I got all my terminology kind of confused.


Oh! Actually, that sounds quite believable, even if it's speculative! What makes it even cooler is how Faramir combines that "lie detector" with his superb communication strategy both with the hobbits and with Eowyn: he knows exactly when he can apply some pressure to confirm what he suspects...maybe this is what makes the question asked by this thread a little difficult to answer.

Continuing my habit of brushing off the dust of threads I wished I could have commented on before...

Has anyone mentioned Faramir's (and possibly Denethor's) instantaneous ability to recognize Aragorn's status?  I mean Faramir wakes up and is like "Hello, your Majesty," without a blink and it's suggested that Denethor recognized who Aragorn was too (though he had a much less positive reaction to it).  Do you guys think this is related to their ability to "read the hearts of men" or is some seperate ability?  Is it that Faramir and Denethor see auras or something (ick.  That sounds a bit new agey) and some people look all murdery and some people look like kings etc?

And do we know of anyone else who can ready minds to compare them to?  Aragorn?  Galadriel?  I'm trying to think of someone...

Hmm, actually, I've never thought of the Aragorn thing as an example of mind-reading. Remember, Faramir says "My lord, you called me," which is why I've always figured that Faramir had some kind of mental interaction with Aragorn while being healed, and that convinced him.

As for Denethor, I have two theories: 1) he might have guessed/found out Aragorn's background at the time when the latter went by the name Thorongil; 2) he might have discovered it with the help of the palantir, in which case Sauron would have had a hand in whipping up his dislike of Aragorn hugely. But of course that's not to say that Denethor didn't also "read" something in Aragorn that made him uneasy.


Definitely Galadriel...I'm tentative about Gandalf (thinking about his conversation with Bilbo at the beginning). Aragorn? Nah...doesn't feel that way to me. IMO, he's too much a person of action, and this kind of ability would require reflection more -- which is why I'm tentative about Gandalf.

Like Lilan, I've always assumed that Faramir had some kind of encounter with Aragorn in "limbo" that convinced him that Aragorn was the king.  Denethor is another matter, though.  The hints in the Appendix are so vague that I think there's a lot of room to play with possibilities there:  it sounds like "Maybe he figured out who Aragorn was, but we're not sure whether he did, or how he did so if he did do it."  (Which seems fitting for Denethor's secretive personality!)

Mindreaders...I imagine most Elves can do it, at least most Noldor.  Not sure about, say, Legolas, though.

Oh dear.  I'm doing it again.  Sorry everyone...


I certainly agree with that.  I guess my question was whether anyone wandering around in Black-Breath-limbo would have woken up knowing Aragorn was the king. 


I think I've always come out on the side of thinking that Denethor knew or strongly suspected because the "Ranger from the North" line and because of Denethor's personality.  I mean if you look at it backwards, Denethor is a man who can read people - I cannot imagine that, in his youth, he wouldn't have tried to read Aragorn.  I assume this would have resulted in him either perceiving something from Aragorn or, because Aragorn is the king, not being able to read him (which would probably have raised any number of red flags for Denethor).  Though I think it's certainly open for discussion.

With respect to Faramir's mind-reading - I thought it was interesting tha Gollom reacts with pain when he lies to Faramir.  Do people think this was Gollum feeling guilt and fear or was Faramir able to mentally poke people (or maybe Gollum was made extra-sensative to that kind of reading because of the Ring...).

Don't apologize!  It's always fun when somebody comes up with a new aspect to discuss on one of the dormant threads.  And I must say your new aspect is an interesting one!


I'd never thought about it in those terms before, and it's a very good question!  Merry and Éowyn already knew or suspected, didn't they?  And of course, they also already knew Aragorn.  Would any random stranger have woken with the same knowledge?  Would it have to be a Gondorian (i.e., you recognize your own king but not necessarily someone else's)?  Would it only have happened at the time when events were in motion for the Return of the King?  Or looking at it from the other direction, would Faramir have awakened knowing who had healed him even if it had been, say, Elrond?  I could see a case for almost any of those scenarios!  (Scenarii?)


Hmm, my theory is that it was something like Gollum's twisted mind being brushed by Faramir's clear one and not being able to stand the clarity.  Like the way he couldn't handle being touched by the Elven rope.

I can see that and originally was certain it was that.  But I recently read the scene where Gandalf and Denethor first meet and Pippin describes how they meet eyes and appear to be mentally fencing and I wondered if there was more to it - a sense of mental striving which has a more physical aspect.  There is some difficulty in seperating the two I suppose - I mean I assume if you broke someone mentally, as it were, there would be a physical reaction too... 

The Elrond-healing-Faramir question never really occurred to me.  Though I wonder if there was something unique to Faramir in that scene.  Neither Merry nor Eowyn wake up recognizing that they were "called" back - their responses appear to be along the lines of "Woah.  Where am I?"  Eowyn doesn't seem to be even aware the Aragorn was around - of course she might want to avoid thinking about him at all, but it struck me that both Merry and Eowyn seemed much less aware of how they'd been saved than Faramir. 

We do have Elrond healing Frodo from being stabbed by the wraith-blade and Frodo doesn't have any sort of revelation regarding who healed him.  Though the Black Breath might be something else again. 

 
Hey, are you all still out there? Some of us have been feeling lonely lately...

Maybe I'm re-hashing some of what's already been said, but I'm just flexing some long-dormant critical muscles, so please excuse.

I'm sure Faramir can't read minds in the sense that he knows specifically what you're thinking. He just has a very acute intelligence ('keen wit') and a very good knowledge of how minds work, plus a talent for recognising who can be trusted and who can't. Most great real-world political leaders and military commanders - and Faramir is both of these par excellence - have had these qualities.  On top of that Faramir has a natural compassion - an ability to 'feel with' people, without which you can't really 'read' them.

Hence he quickly senses that Frodo and Sam are to be trusted and that Eowyn is deeply unhappy. On top of that, he obviously draws on what they say in order to form a conclusion about them. He doesn't need to read minds, in the most literal sense, in order to know that Frodo took the Ring unwillingly at others' asking, or that Eowyn is in love with Aragorn; they tell him that themselves, though not directly. Contrariwise, the mere fact that Gollum is 'unwilling' to look at Faramir must tell Faramir a lot at his shiftiness; and Gollum's general evasiveness is a good indication that he has a lot on his conscience.

Detecting him as somebody who has 'done murder before now' goes beyond ordinary perception, but I imagine an experienced criminal judge soon acquires a nose for violent crime, and Faramir's reputation for justice has to be based on experience with dealing with wrong-doers. The highly skilled way he interrogates Frodo shows what an accomplished lawyer he is.

I'm sure Faramir (the real one, not the horrible film version) never has any intention of ill-treating Gollum. It's Gollum's own sense of guilt that 'stabs' him: the awareness of being caught out in a lie and perceived to be rotten through and through. Gollum, after all, has a conscience: remember how Gandalf says he was haunted by the murder of Deagol and always trying to justify himself to himself. Faramir actually treats Gollum very gently - I love the mildly humourous 'take your fish' that he ends the interview with.

It's sad to see how in their interview in 'The Siege of Gondor', Faramir and Denethor use their knowledge of each other to torture each other. Denethor usually judges without compassion and Faramir with it, but even Faramir is be goaded into bitterness here. Boromir must have been a welcome relief to both of them: he's no fool, but he doesn't have that ruthless perceptiveness.

I wonder if Eowyn felt a bit uncomfortable at times, married to a man - however loving and compassionate - who can't be deceived and shows her how pointless it is to deceive herself. The children must have had to tread carefully too - no use hiding the evidence of one's misdeeds and hoping dad wouldn't notice!

I think the healing of Faramir is one of the turning points of the whole book. Indeed the whole fate of Gondor depends on it: if Faramir doesn't accept Aragorn there will be disaster all round, as there would have been if Boromir and Aragorn had both got back to M.T.  Faramir's recognition of Aragorn does appear to be supernatural and I'm sure is meant to be, to an extent - but he was forewarned by Frodo that Aragorn was coming to M.T. and that he was entitled to claim the kingship. Faramir appears to dismiss the idea at the time, but that doesn't mean to say he forgot about it. However quickly he later puts two and two together, he does have something to work on.

It's striking that Aragorn leaves Eowyn's room before she wakes up. It isn't hard to guess how she'd have reacted if she'd opened her eyes and found Aragorn bending over her! I can imagine Eomer sitting there saying 'Don't mention Aragorn, don't mention Aragorn' to himself and wondering what to say if Eowyn mentions him...

Hi!     Yes, we're still here, even if the board moves slowly these days.  It's always interesting to see opinions on this subject, simply because it is one of the most open questions in LOTR!

This comment stood out to me because it made me think of the appendix.  There, it says that Faramir and Denethor were equal in their ability to read people, despite the fact that Denethor did so without compassion:  "He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn."  So that suggests to me that this "reading" is something separate from that which can be done through compassion.

The thing that's always struck me is how much he works out from what Frodo doesn't say.  I remember gasping in admiration when he worked out that Boromir and Frodo must have quarreled over the Ring.

In the end, I think this one really comes down to personal preference--what makes Faramir seem coolest to the individual reader.  Personally, I like my Numenoreans a little bit mysterious and supernatural, so that's probably why I lean toward the idea that Faramir's powers go beyond those of simply good observation.  But I can imagine someone else preferring it the other way.

Er -- hi!  *crawls out of the woodwork*

This is one that I never even wondered about until finding fandom.  Faramir says he sees Gollum's lies in his mind; Gandalf says Denethor can read minds from a distance (he (1) doesn't know about the palantír, and (2) there's no indication that palantíri allowed the users to read non-palantír-using minds anyway, and (3) Denethor 'read' young!Aragorn before he started using it); and Tolkien said that Númenóreans gained powers of mind (and good looks, heh) on a par with Elves, so it doesn't seem at all improbable.  Gandalf certainly doesn't find it improbable.  I actually don't think that Faramir's conclusions -- crazy brilliant though they are -- necessarily indicate anything more than "normal" (well, extraordinary, but possible for highly gifted people in RL) abilities.  It's that he says he's looking in somebody else's mind (he could just as easily have said, "that much I perceived in his expression" or "his demeanour" or "his countenance" or any number of things), which is ... hm.  Kind of definitive for me.

I do find it cool, but honestly, it didn't occur to me that "hey, if all those random conclusions were TELEPATHIC SUPERPOWERS, that would be awesome."  I just didn't see any other way to interpret Faramir's own remarks.  Even in RL, I would interpret somebody saying "I perceived X clearly in his mind" as a claim to telepathy (and, y'know, clinical insanity) because I can't see any other way to parse it.

Obviously he can't just lift thoughts out of someone's head, or he wouldn't need to ask questions.  He associates his whatever-it-is with sight -- there are "dark rooms" in Gollum's mind obscuring his sight, he perceives Gollum's deceptiveness in his mind, he "reads" his murderousness.  And we already know he has quite literal visions.  So plainly he sees -- something, and w/ Gollum less well than he usually does.  It's not at all clear exactly what he can do wrt telepathy, but I think it is clear that, as with Denethor and their remote ancestors, there's something.